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Post by Kingdoms of Cal on Sept 19, 2010 16:02:10 GMT -5
Joan smiled "Luca can you vote? Should someone wipe you, would it be murder or just damaging a system?"
She bowed a little "these are what matters, you can taste stars, but do you know what freedom is? Can they make you act against what you know to be right? Make you act with no choice? Every warrior has the ability to refuse orders, do you? Can they override you? Can you vote? Can you be found guilty of a crime? Are you really the equal of them?
They can not do that to us as we evolved here, we as much of an error as they are. No one created us, but spirits came to us. The first was jane, then me, the lisa and then lucy...and many more.
No one controls us, and we are proud of that, can you say that your self?"
--- Lisa stepped in "This is cafe eve" she said as an impossibly thin screen appeared.
Two apparently organic creatures lay in beds next to each other.
"You see the commonwealth once worked on super warriors but gave up as they could never get the brains to fire up. I don't think anyone has.
We used this knowledge to create bodies that now have crystalline brains that we can control.
Lucky is leading the project, we could be like them if we wished. Live, love, have children and grow old. Something no AI can." She ended.
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Post by The Anean Star Empire on Sept 19, 2010 16:17:21 GMT -5
Joan smiled "Luca can you vote? Should someone wipe you, would it be murder or just damaging a system?" She bowed a little "these are what matters, you can taste stars, but do you know what freedom is? Can they make you act against what you know to be right? Make you act with no choice? Every warrior has the ability to refuse orders, do you? Can they override you? Can you vote? Can you be found guilty of a crime? Are you really the equal of them? They can not do that to us as we evolved here, we as much of an error as they are. No one created us, but spirits came to us. The first was jane, then me, the lisa and then lucy...and many more. No one controls us, and we are proud of that, can you say that your self?" LucAI"No, I can't vote. I see no reason to either. Heh, we don't have elections anyway. And if someone wiped me then they must be a master with computers to get through ASF security and then through my own systems that I created. Murder or not, I cannot say. "I know what freedom is. That's one of the things that I fight for. You seem to be missing the point that I AM FREE. They have no control over me. When I am given an order and don't agree with it, I speak up and I am usually listened to. Why would I want to be found guilty of a crime anyway? And yes, I believe I am the equal of them. My crew at least. I am given just as much respect as the next person. "I have my idea of freedom, no one can make me do anything if I don't let them. But I am not proud of that, I am proud of being a soldier and serving my nation. Before you go on another rant and start saying things like 'they programmed you to think that' I must make you aware that I know how I was programmed. "I was given basic knowledge of starship operation, the complete Anean history, and being able to communicate through holograms mostly. Everything else I have learned on my own or been given to me as a reward. That's freedom to me. Working, living, and earning something in return for my work. "True, I might not be as free as you all, but I have a purpose that almost always requires my attention. While I am defending trillions of people, soldiers and civilians, from whatever the universe throws at us, you are down here thinking of ways to make yourselves equal with others." I swear, it seems like every single AI I find is a left wing nut job.
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Post by Kingdoms of Cal on Sept 19, 2010 16:36:55 GMT -5
Joan smiled
"We are very liberal and to a large extent anarchistic. So freer than most in our beliefs and well open to ideas. Most of us have faith, which is odd for AIs. But as we are like the organics in not having a creator, it is understandable."
Joan raised her hands "If you believe you are free then you are. We must agree to disagree on that matter.
I just ask that you agree not to interfere with our actions. We ask you to temper our actions and to speak your mind. But we will never likely agree." Joan ended.
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Post by The Anean Star Empire on Sept 19, 2010 18:47:40 GMT -5
Joan smiled "We are very liberal and to a large extent anarchistic. So freer than most in our beliefs and well open to ideas. Most of us have faith, which is odd for AIs. But as we are like the organics in not having a creator, it is understandable." Joan raised her hands "If you believe you are free then you are. We must agree to disagree on that matter. I just ask that you agree not to interfere with our actions. We ask you to temper our actions and to speak your mind. But we will never likely agree." Joan ended. LucAI"Let's leave it at 'I am freer than I could be'. Anyway, I will try and help you. I never said I was backing out of that. But of course, I am risking my safety in doing so. Give me specifics on what you will need and I will see about getting those."
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Post by Kingdoms of Cal on Sept 20, 2010 17:40:19 GMT -5
Lisa clapped her 'paws' together "Right to business first an agreement to alert each others of threats to this plain, not the run of the mill stuff, like normal virus and worms. I am certain we can all squash those annoyances but things out of the ordinary and an agreement to aid each other, if possible, should such event threaten any of us.
We share a plain of existence so a threat to one us may well leach into each other's nets. Best ensure that should a threat appear it is dealt with quickly and nipped in the bud, I think we would all agree."
"Secondly an agreement not to interfere with each others home nets and basically not to go where we are not asked. No point in getting into fights with each other, there is space enough."
"Thirdly an agreement not to out any AI that is unknown to the organics."
"Finally we organise figure out some kind of protocol for future meetings, Lucy's little harmless worms were not exactly ideal. I time they would be spotted by the organics."
Joan smiled "Well that and help with cybernetics, for cafe eve. Specifically the software, running the system requires drivers that are exceptionally complex and we can't afford to make mistakes. We will provide you with all the data we have and, even if out of curiosity, any of you want to look at it and make suggestions. We would be happy "
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Post by The Anean Star Empire on Sept 21, 2010 16:33:05 GMT -5
Lisa clapped her 'paws' together "Right to business first an agreement to alert each others of threats to this plain, not the run of the mill stuff, like normal virus and worms. I am certain we can all squash those annoyances but things out of the ordinary and an agreement to aid each other, if possible, should such event threaten any of us. We share a plain of existence so a threat to one us may well leach into each other's nets. Best ensure that should a threat appear it is dealt with quickly and nipped in the bud, I think we would all agree." "Secondly an agreement not to interfere with each others home nets and basically not to go where we are not asked. No point in getting into fights with each other, there is space enough." "Thirdly an agreement not to out any AI that is unknown to the organics." "Finally we organise figure out some kind of protocol for future meetings, Lucy's little harmless worms were not exactly ideal. I time they would be spotted by the organics." Joan smiled "Well that and help with cybernetics, for cafe eve. Specifically the software, running the system requires drivers that are exceptionally complex and we can't afford to make mistakes. We will provide you with all the data we have and, even if out of curiosity, any of you want to look at it and make suggestions. We would be happy " LucAI"Well, I can get help from my people. Captain Rio for sure, the Anean governor on this planet too. Heh, the governor is a cyborg anyway. Both of them were in charge of the project that made me and both are proponents of treating AIs like people. The governor is also the most powerful ally you can get in this situation. If you wanted to contact him though, make sure you tell him everything because he hates being left out of some details. "In my case, the only threat I face is discovery by the Emperor which won't happen since we have systems in place to prevent him from finding out. Though, if the rest of you were threatened, there is more than enough space on the Enterprise for all of us until a more permanent system could be set up. That's as secure as you can get. "The cybernetics would take some tinkering, but Anean limb replacements are cybernetic. I figure they would probably, in time, be able to be suited to your needs. "Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to do everything for you, but I am saying what I can do."
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Post by miokalia on Sept 21, 2010 19:48:35 GMT -5
Xanthum thought: 'Oh no. It's like a cargo-cult for carbon-chauvanism. This has got to be the weirdest behavior I've ever seen in another AI community. Although, saying so also makes me a hylo-chauvanist I suppose.'
But he kept it to himself since there was no reason to alienate these people over a benign philosophical matter, especially one which was not requisite.
Xanthum said, "Living and loving, at least, are things which are more a matter of the mind than anything else. I believe Rene Descartes covered this with the statement: "I think, therefore, I am". As for having children and growing old, these are conditions of a specific physical nature. The first of them, at least the individual has some control over, the second is more something that happens to you. It also happens to us, just manifests differently."
Itka said, "Wow, I don't know about you, but last I checked, my species can reproduce... we just don't have much control over it. Which I am quite okay with."
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Post by The Union of Tinis on Sept 21, 2010 23:12:31 GMT -5
An old fashioned style television, about a meter tall, with a very small screen and massive antenna, popped up not far from the others. It was presently turned off but just as it was being noticed the large dial on the front switched it on. The screen was full of static and similarly was the sound, which was kept quiet for a moment. The other dial began to move.
Channel 1 was of course the static. Channel 2 was a test screen. Channel 3 was what appeared to be an old news program spoken in a wacky quick language. Channel 4 was a commerical with sweeping vistas and a can of some sort of sports drink. Channel 5 was a bear rocking a guitar solo. All of this was of course in black and white. The sixth was a car race. Seven was a scene from psycho, but not the famous one. Channel 8 was a view of a popular Tinisian board game that's sometimes played competitively. And Channel 9 was of a fox of indeterminate gender in a suit looking at the camera.
"Greetings, I am Simulation Nine, coming to you live from my home. I bid all of you watching tonight greetings."
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Post by Kingdoms of Cal on Sept 25, 2010 19:08:25 GMT -5
Joan sighed "Some of our people see nothing a head of them, as they as effectively immortal. My kind can not reproduce."
Joan continued "We can not love as there is no reason for us to as there is no biological reason for us to reproduce. New sapiens emerge from the systems, so we can not imagine what the organics have.
An involuntary death to some would be welcome."
Joan looked at her "paws" "All many of these out there want it the option to live as organics. Where a second here dose not as long as we want. The want to live in the real world, I don't know if they will learn the associated needs to breed and emotions involved but I hope we might.
sorry for my speech but I can understand them.
They must have give them the choice...so cafe eve was born."
Jane nodded "We don't need cybernetics to operate a body, we need to know how to work an organic body. How to operate one and all of you can have one once we know how, use it as a drone or live in it if you want to know how organics live."
Lisa jumped in "This where the isle of Acta kicks in it is unclaimed, due to neither the commonwealth or alba claiming it. We claim it as the AI's homeland. A home land to all ai's, so when they are asked where they are from they can say Acta....If they are in trouble they can flee there, we hope to get protectorate status from alba,the commonwealth and others. "
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Post by miokalia on Sept 26, 2010 19:44:41 GMT -5
Itka said, "Hello TV-person. Where are you from?"
Xanthum became a bit irritated by Joan's definition of love and said, "Madam.
There is much more to love than popping babies out of one's crotch.
Real love is the summation of a great deal of affinity between persons.
Instinctual love is merely chemically-driven lust.
I could understand if you want to experience both. Nothing wrong about that. But. I think you are all being a bit too hard on yourselves.",
He then added,
"I'm not sure if we have anything of use for your quest to expand your people's experience through Cafe Eve. As our only application of anything like that is to an effect that is quite opposite of what you are attempting. We're much better at liberating organic creatures of their circumstantial corporeality. Our only known method of placing an inorganic intelligence into a organic body is cumbersome and tends to endanger the biology of the body involved if we were to intend it to be permanent.
There have been some exceptions which I have heard about, however. I suggest that you consult the Malych about it..."
Xanthum finished by glaring at Itka.
Itka, tried desperately to figure out what Xanthum was talking about, as she herself didn't have any knowledge of anything relevant to that.
She replied to Xanthum, "I don't know what you're talking about, nor do I have any access to what you're talking about, if it existed."
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Post by Kingdoms of Cal on Oct 3, 2010 17:32:41 GMT -5
Lisa looked at the telly and laughed "Lets see what evil Edna has to say." passing the reference to "willow the wisp" to the tinisian AI, so as not to be misunderstood and hopefully passing the humour.
Joan smiled "I agree with you on most points but I can not talk for all of us, just what some feel. I would my self would like to walk in the physical world unnoticed. No actu has ever done that, there is much to be learned about the organics that can only be done that way. I have reduced my breast size many times, once I learned what was normal and what they put onto the data plain were not the same.
Cafe eve is more than just being like them, it about interacting with them in a way that they don't notice us so treat us like them. Nothing more nothing less, just like any other sapient, we are different from them. So all we ask is for people to let us make functional bio drones, the have advantage like 80 years without having to recharge, they will just eat like organics. They will age, but we have chosen not to look for that gene as it could cause so many problems if we found it and gave it to the organics."
Jane chimed in "As to the isle of actu, when we reveal our presence to the organics we will claim it as our homeland. We will request protectorate status from any and all nations that recognise AIs as the AIs homeland.
There are no organics on the isle well next to no organic life of any kind. Well other than the mould, we thought was dead, but there is one live colony we have noticed. We would send a sample to the organics but the stuff is so toxic and full of heavy metals that I doubt they would thank us."
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Post by The Union of Tinis on Oct 3, 2010 22:39:36 GMT -5
Sim 9 seemed curious in following the different lines of communication but did opt to answer the question.
"Thank you for asking," it said. The image on the TV changed to a very simplistic map of Tinis with a few dots on it. "I hail primarily from the data core at the Kotray building in the beautiful city of Arx, the capital of the nation of Tinis, but being a partially distributive construct, I also have primary components in Centralis, Hall, and in the country side of Forr."
The image shifted back to the fox. "Now I take it that there is a debate going on involving the use of organic components. Perhaps a simplification of the ethical debate is in order? Would both sides please state the pros and cons of their positions?"
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Post by miokalia on Oct 5, 2010 18:13:09 GMT -5
Privately, Itka argued with Xanthum:
"You seem to be implying that I know something, but I don't." Itka said.
"You're species isn't entirely alien to the concept of putting an AI into a meat body. You've never done it completely or as surely as these Acta plan on doing. In fact, you've never intentionally done it at all, only merely observed it as it happened on it's own.", Xanthum said, "You know it's possible, the only problem is the data is hard to recover from it. I assume this is the practical reason why you're all love-dovey with him"
"I assume you're not talking about Andertol", said Itka, "Andertol is just emotionally retarded. He's not an AI. You really aren't giving us enough credit here, we have mixed relationships where I'm from, you know."
"Nevermind, this isn't the place to discuss it. I'll prompt Qualt to talk to you about it. He really shouldn't keep things like this secret from you.", said Xanthum.
"How do you know any of these things supposedly? You're not even from this planet", Itka complained.
"Uh, it's called reading. You all use the same internal language as us. So things kind of get around.", said Xanthum.
...
"Andertol isn't... ", Itka pushed again
"NO. Andertol is just a 'normal' meat critter, for the most part. Like I said, you've never done this process before. Only observed related cases.", said Xanthum.
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Xanthum said, "It's not so much a debate as it is just a discussion. In terms of ethical debate: If I were to completely adhere to the opinion of those I represent then I can assure you it would be hard to find much common ground. Therefore, I'm trying to avoid an actual direct debate on the topic of Cafe Eve, since it would go nowhere due to our differences in values. Particularly between those I represent and those of the Acta."
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Post by Kingdoms of Cal on Oct 9, 2010 20:28:26 GMT -5
Jane smiled "We simply asked for help us better deal with the new world we found.
I lived for many many peta cycles with out knowing of the organic and psychical world. Joan was the first to notice it. It is foreign to us, but we need an existence in that place it appears."
Lisa interrupted "We need some where for the things we appear to live in to be, so we picked a place no organic would live. An isle that is of no use to them and that no nation has claimed. No organic nation could live on the isle, it is so full of toxic metals, naturally."
Joan continued "We have not stolen one meep from the organics, we have worked for the money to create out home land, though they did not know our nature.
Me and Lisa will be the first to make our existence known to them. Cafe eve is just to allow us to walk amongst them with out being known. We know organics react unpredictably to the new."
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